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Post by zaphod (NYI) on Feb 18, 2012 14:15:27 GMT -5
Well I have been trying to address this quietly for the past month or so since I took over this team, but I am not getting much satisfaction on the matter. I took over the Islanders about a month ago and when I take on a team I try to take the time to make certain all of the assets that should be on the team are accounted for. I check past trades, past waivers and free agent signings and such. I understand this league was on another site previously, one I can't get access as it requires you be a member to view it. The only listing of assets I had to run with were, what was on Fantrax page and what the previous GM had listed on the team page. dirt30.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=islanders&action=display&thread=137on the list, created April 4th of 2011 is: So he was taken in the initial prospect draft and the listing there proves it: dirt30.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=prospects&action=display&thread=279I was told that the previous NYI GM also had stopped picking in that draft and the player was assigned to him, I don't see how that matters one way or the other though. I went looking on fantrax for him and he wasn't available. I found him on Toronto's Fantrax page and couldn't ascertain how that happend until I checked Toronto's proboard page: Now we all know fantrax isn't perfect with how/when it lists it's players. I've come to learn that the previous commish wasn't exactly running things well at the end of his tenure, nor was the GM of the Islanders. I've been told that Smith-Pelly's status was brought up previously and since the previous GM, who quit on the league after the 1st round of the entry draft last year, didn't say anything that Smith-Pelly was fair game. We all know fantrax isn't perfect, especially when it comes to prospects who aren't selected in the first 15 spots or so and those players show up whenever they get around to it, but I don't think a player drafted should be free game just because he goes unclaimed by a lame-duck GM. I think that is a huge mistake, it hurts the league when you allow players to be stripped from the "worse" teams and put on the better teams due to a GM's inactivity. I would simply like this resolved. I've talked with the current Commish and he stated he didn't think it fair to remove the player from Toronto's roster since he has been on the roster for along time. I suggested a compensation draft pick in the upcoming draft would seem fair. I talked to the Toronto GM who wasn't aware that Smith-Pelly was listed on the proboards roster here and seemed to want to trade him to me but I haven't heard from him since, I understand he is probably busy with life and that is fine. I would like to hear what the other GM's have to say about the matter, keep in mind whatever the majority decide, I am fine with. I just don't think an issue like this should be overlooked. thanks for your time, Jason
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2012 22:34:21 GMT -5
I am the new guy but i do know that when mgrs come and go sometimes things slip thru the crack. It appears this is one of those times with the supporting information that NYI shows. I think if indeed this is the issue and other mgr is not involved, i would have no problem with a compensatory pick being issued and i think it would be the fair thing. Just my two cents worth.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2012 1:24:02 GMT -5
Just trying to understand...the old manager drafted smith-pelly, never claimed him on Fantrax, left the league, and Toronto picked Smith-Pelly up?
If that's the case, I'm fine with a compensatory pick. I don't see any situation where DSP gets returned to NYI, but the pick is fine, if that is indeed how it went down. Although I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline.
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Post by zaphod (NYI) on Feb 19, 2012 15:44:19 GMT -5
I don't know the timeline either, Smith-Pelly could have (wasn't in the league long enough to know) been an issue where he wasn't put into Fantrax until well after the draft so he couldn't be claimed by that GM. It happens in fantrax. The former GM obviously quit on the league along time ago but had Smith-Pelly listed on his proboards roster as of April of 2011.
I want to stress I am not looking to rock the boat or cause conflict, but awareness that with a 30 team FHL and the turnover that happens when it comes to GM's it is vital to keep assets with the teams they belong on because when you weaken those teams, finding new GM's to take them on gets harder and harder.
Poorly run teams will kill a Fantasy Hockey League quick and allowing those teams to get weakened by poor moves will only speed up that death. I've been in so many fantasy leagues that never get past year 2 because GM's exploit those holes, the league gets skewed out of it being competitive and since there are so many new leagues out there, GM's leave.
/soapbox
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Post by johnnybower (Det GM) on Feb 19, 2012 19:37:59 GMT -5
If NYI drafted him fair-and-square in the league draft, he should belong to them. If the current Toronto GM was the GM at that draft, he should know that DSP was already taken and to "sign" him on an obvious admin screwup by a lame GM doesn't sit well with me. That's my two-cents worth.
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Post by JetsGM on Feb 20, 2012 13:20:16 GMT -5
went to the old boards, Smith-Pelley was selected as a missed pick for NYI by acting Commissioner at the time, COL GM, on Aug. 3rd 2010. here's the link to the thread- sparrowtrini.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=prod&thread=437&page=1there is no record of NYI waiving or trading Smith-Pelley. Toronto GM attempts to sign Smith-Pelley a month and a half later claiming that he is available on fantrax thread link- sparrowtrini.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=signings&thread=487&page=1here is the heart of the text if link does not work--- Sept 30, 2010, 12:36pm, Staden (TOR) wrote: Toronto Maple Leafs Sign Devante Smith Pelley, Ryan O'Marra, and Jeff Penner
all assigned to minors
Sept 30, 2010, 1:00pm, dyzfunctioned (TBL) wrote: Devante it taken.
Toronto writes back: hm true enough, however he isn't a double and isn't on the roster of the guy that drafted him. Isn't the ruling that if he isn't on the guys roster than that is tough for him? If not i will drop him for the guy to pick up. let me know
1. Smith-Pelley was drafted by the NYI(or assigned via draft) 1. Smith-Pelley never left the NYI team, he simply wasn't added on fantrax. 2. These boards take precedence over fantrax-this rule was established at the beginning of the league's formation. 3. Toronto never should have been allowed to pick him up on fantrax. Despite his claims, there is no rule that if a player is available on fantrax it means they are fair game. -Smith-Pelley should be returned to NYI. A pm should be sent to TOR explaining the matter. Toronto will be free to choice another prospect from the rather large free agency pool. just my take on it.....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 13:35:32 GMT -5
toronto should get to keep smith pelley for the following reasons:
1) it was every team's duty to make sure their fantrax and forum team pages are up to date (and still is)
2) i cant remember who added players to fantrax team back then, if it was each manager or the commish, but regardless, it is every gm's duty to make sure their players are accounted for.
3) what if toronto ended up trading smith pelley, and then the team he traded him to traded smith pelley again? this could be a long ass process and we shouldnt be able to go and reverse trades. if this situation comes up again and the player in question was traded multiple times then we arent just going to give him back to the original owner.
4) if team A signs a player, doesnt add him on fantrax or his team page, and then a year later team B tries to sign him, its not fair that team B doesnt get to have him because team A didnt add him to his team. if smith pelley is not on your fantrax team and forum team, then he is fair game. you cant just be able to hide a player on your team, it can be seen as circumventing the salary cap since that player has a salary and you are not listing him on your team.
what i suggest:
-toronto keeps smith pelley
-nyi gets a compensation pick since this is the first occurence
-rule added in the rulebook: if a player is not on your fantrax and forum page, then he is fair game
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Post by JetsGM on Feb 20, 2012 14:10:06 GMT -5
toronto should get to keep smith pelley for the following reasons: 1) it was every team's duty to make sure their fantrax and forum team pages are up to date (and still is) duty yes but doesn't mean you should lose your players because of it. This board is the primary place for moves not fantrax. nyi drafted pelley on these boards and never waived or traded him here.3) what if toronto ended up trading smith pelley, and then the team he traded him to traded smith pelley again? this could be a long ass process and we shouldnt be able to go and reverse trades. if this situation comes up again and the player in question was traded multiple times then we arent just going to give him back to the original owner. Toronto didn't trade smith-pelley. every situation is different. if there were trade afterwards, of course, that would be a whole other matter.4) if team A signs a player, doesnt add him on fantrax or his team page, and then a year later team B tries to sign him, its not fair that team B doesnt get to have him because team A didnt add him to his team. if smith pelley is not on your fantrax team and forum team, then he is fair game. you cant just be able to hide a player on your team, it can be seen as circumventing the salary cap since that player has a salary and you are not listing him on your team. it was not a year later, it was less than two months. And in the signing thread Toronto acknowledged that he was unsure of whether it was a a legal action. Unfortunately no one stepped up and laid down the law. i don't see how he is fair game at all. how is this a situation of "hiding" a player? where is that coming from?
The fact remains Pelley was drafted by NYI and never waived or traded. He did not "leave" the team and therefore not available to be signed.what i suggest: -rule added in the rulebook: if a player is not on your fantrax and forum page, then he is fair game think that might be a good rule to have, but if a rule such as this is enacted it needs a time frame(say 1 month or whatever).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 14:17:19 GMT -5
toronto should get to keep smith pelley for the following reasons: 1) it was every team's duty to make sure their fantrax and forum team pages are up to date (and still is) duty yes but doesn't mean you should lose your players because of it. This board is the primary place for moves not fantrax. nyi drafted pelley on these boards and never waived or traded him here.like i said in the initial post, it can be seen as circumventing the cap. if you sign a player and dont add him to fantrax then you are hiding his salary. the player doesnt exist on your squad and thus should be available to anyone.3) what if toronto ended up trading smith pelley, and then the team he traded him to traded smith pelley again? this could be a long ass process and we shouldnt be able to go and reverse trades. if this situation comes up again and the player in question was traded multiple times then we arent just going to give him back to the original owner. Toronto didn't trade smith-pelley. every situation is different. if there were trade afterwards, of course, that would be a whole other matter.so your saying if toronto quickly trades me smith pelley then nyi cant be given smith pelley? it shouldnt matter if the player was traded or not, both cases should be handled the same.4) if team A signs a player, doesnt add him on fantrax or his team page, and then a year later team B tries to sign him, its not fair that team B doesnt get to have him because team A didnt add him to his team. if smith pelley is not on your fantrax team and forum team, then he is fair game. you cant just be able to hide a player on your team, it can be seen as circumventing the salary cap since that player has a salary and you are not listing him on your team. it was not a year later, it was less than two months. And in the signing thread Toronto acknowledged that he was unsure of whether it was a a legal action. Unfortunately no one stepped up and laid down the law. i don't see how he is fair game at all. how is this a situation of "hiding" a player? where is that coming from?it doesnt matter if it is a year or two months, i was just giving an example. let say the player in question was scott gomez and not smith pelley. nyi signs gomez, doesnt add him to fantrax or his roster page. a year goes by, and gomez' salary is unaccounted for. somehow, gomez has now turned into a superstar, so toronto claims him. nyi then says gomez is his property because he signed him a year ago. your saying nyi should be given the superstar gomez even though he hid his salary for more than a year and saved 7M cap space? i know smith pelley doesnt make that much but it doesnt change the fact that if in the future a similar case happens the person can just say "nyi got to keep smith pelley, so i should be able to keep player x".The fact remains Pelley was drafted by NYI and never waived or traded. He did not "leave" the team and therefore not available to be signed. [/color] what i suggest: -rule added in the rulebook: if a player is not on your fantrax and forum page, then he is fair game think that might be a good rule to have, but if a rule such as this is enacted it needs a time frame(say 1 month or whatever).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 14:33:04 GMT -5
3) what if toronto ended up trading smith pelley, and then the team he traded him to traded smith pelley again? this could be a long ass process and we shouldnt be able to go and reverse trades. if this situation comes up again and the player in question was traded multiple times then we arent just going to give him back to the original owner. This is the crux of the matter. The whole situation is regrettable and it's a shame we didn't have better leadership at the time but the fact of the matter is that this is ancient history and it's unfair to assume that having DSP on the Toronto roster hasn't affected management decisions by that GM. There were all sorts of anomalies at our draft last year and if you really started digging you'd find that many GM's might have legit gripes (although probably not of the magnitude of losing DSP for nothing). I just don't see how this is any different from a GM making a horrible trade and then abandoning the team. The NYI franchise got off to a rough start but a new GM can not change the sins of the previous owner, all they can do is buckle down and work with what they've got. I am glad to see the initiative taken by the NYI GM but I do not see how the previous GM's screwup is anyones problem. You're not the first person to take over a team and throw up in your throat after seeing what the previous GM did.
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Post by zaphod (NYI) on Feb 20, 2012 15:32:32 GMT -5
3) what if toronto ended up trading smith pelley, and then the team he traded him to traded smith pelley again? this could be a long ass process and we shouldnt be able to go and reverse trades. if this situation comes up again and the player in question was traded multiple times then we arent just going to give him back to the original owner. This is the crux of the matter. The whole situation is regrettable and it's a shame we didn't have better leadership at the time but the fact of the matter is that this is ancient history and it's unfair to assume that having DSP on the Toronto roster hasn't affected management decisions by that GM.
There were all sorts of anomalies at our draft last year and if you really started digging you'd find that many GM's might have legit gripes (although probably not of the magnitude of losing DSP for nothing). I just don't see how this is any different from a GM making a horrible trade and then abandoning the team. The NYI franchise got off to a rough start but a new GM can not change the sins of the previous owner, all they can do is buckle down and work with what they've got.
I am glad to see the initiative taken by the NYI GM but I do not see how the previous GM's screwup is anyones problem. You're not the first person to take over a team and throw up in your throat after seeing what the previous GM did. my point in all of this is that it is this kind of thinking that kills league's dead[/color] this is also why I brought it up, a league is only as good as the 30 GM's who choose to be here. Decisions shouldn't be made unilaterally, they should be voiced for all 30 partners in this league to discuss and come to a decision upon, a vote if necessary. when you start having 1 or 2 or 5 GM's making the decisions for 30, is when you get people questioning whether or not their time is worth it. this isn't a matter of a bad trade, this is a matter of a GM seeing a player, known to be on another teams roster, and poaching him because: too bad, so sad. those kinds of decisions have killed all but the one other league I am in.
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Post by zaphod (NYI) on Feb 20, 2012 15:36:07 GMT -5
-rule added in the rulebook: if a player is not on your fantrax and forum page, then he is fair game I wasn't here for it, but I have seen players who are on a teams proboards roster, but they aren't in fantrax. it isn't up to any of us to put a player in fantrax, it is up to the people who code fantrax. unless someone can clarify that for me. Smith-Pelly was on the proboards roster, the GM went lame duck, Smith-Pelly was added to fantrax but the GM wasn't around to claim him on his roster. I've said my piece about how the above thinking kills league's...if people don't get it, I can't explain it any other way.
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Post by zaphod (NYI) on Feb 20, 2012 15:39:45 GMT -5
it doesnt matter if it is a year or two months, i was just giving an example. let say the player in question was scott gomez and not smith pelley. nyi signs gomez, doesnt add him to fantrax or his roster page. a year goes by, and gomez' salary is unaccounted for. somehow, gomez has now turned into a superstar, so toronto claims him. nyi then says gomez is his property because he signed him a year ago. your saying nyi should be given the superstar gomez even though he hid his salary for more than a year and saved 7M cap space? i know smith pelley doesnt make that much but it doesnt change the fact that if in the future a similar case happens the person can just say "nyi got to keep smith pelley, so i should be able to keep player x". that is a nice example, not applicable here. DSP was a prospect, had no salary applicable to the cap and when I took on NYI, they had space on their minor league roster. try making an analogy applicalbe to the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 15:44:10 GMT -5
-rule added in the rulebook: if a player is not on your fantrax and forum page, then he is fair game I wasn't here for it, but I have seen players who are on a teams proboards roster, but they aren't in fantrax. it isn't up to any of us to put a player in fantrax, it is up to the people who code fantrax. unless someone can clarify that for me. Smith-Pelly was on the proboards roster, the GM went lame duck, Smith-Pelly was added to fantrax but the GM wasn't around to claim him on his roster. I've said my piece about how the above thinking kills league's...if people don't get it, I can't explain it any other way. we arent going to get 30 gms to vote on a small matter like this. there are guys that dont even bother to check the boards, so we cant expect them to give their input on this. there have been some points as to why you should keep smith pelley, but vancouver and I have countered with stronger points as to why leafs should keep him. i guess we'll wait a few more days and see what others have to say, and then let the commish decide.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 15:50:29 GMT -5
it doesnt matter if it is a year or two months, i was just giving an example. let say the player in question was scott gomez and not smith pelley. nyi signs gomez, doesnt add him to fantrax or his roster page. a year goes by, and gomez' salary is unaccounted for. somehow, gomez has now turned into a superstar, so toronto claims him. nyi then says gomez is his property because he signed him a year ago. your saying nyi should be given the superstar gomez even though he hid his salary for more than a year and saved 7M cap space? i know smith pelley doesnt make that much but it doesnt change the fact that if in the future a similar case happens the person can just say "nyi got to keep smith pelley, so i should be able to keep player x". that is a nice example, not applicable here. DSP was a prospect, had no salary applicable to the cap and when I took on NYI, they had space on their minor league roster. try making an analogy applicalbe to the situation. ive already given an analogy that is applicable. what if smith pelley was traded several times since leafs claimed him on fantrax? are you asking the league to go and reverse all those trades? in your initial post it seemed like you wanted the matter to get resolved, now it just seems like you want smith pelley and you are threatening us saying the league will be killed. just take the compensation pick. if you get to keep DSP, there will be a huge chance that it creates a hassle in the future. a team could sign player X, trade player X (who was then traded several times), and then a manager realizes they signed player X a while ago but didnt add him on his team.
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