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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 16:03:56 GMT -5
Where did I claim to be speaking on behalf of the league? You asked for opinions, I voiced mine. I really don't give a damn what happens here, this is inconsequential to me and for you to start insinuating that this is the sort of thing that 'Kills Leagues' simply screams of extremism.
I already agreed with you that this was a league screw up....what exactly are you looking for here?
*edit* why don't you talk to the Toronto GM privately and try to sort this out?
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Post by zaphod (NYI) on Feb 20, 2012 16:30:45 GMT -5
Where did I claim to be speaking on behalf of the league? You asked for opinions, I voiced mine. I really don't give a damn what happens here, this is inconsequential to me and for you to start insinuating that this is the sort of thing that 'Kills Leagues' simply screams of extremism. I already agreed with you that this was a league screw up....what exactly are you looking for here? *edit* why don't you talk to the Toronto GM privately and try to sort this out? the response was quoting you, it was directed at everyone. as for extremism, I am only using my own experience. subquestion to everyone: how many FHL's have you been in? and how many of them lasted longer than 2 years? I'd be curious to know if I am just unlucky and my experience is unique. edit: I've been speaking with Toronto GM privately since I took the team over, and UofMe but this is the kind of conversation we should all be involved in, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 16:39:48 GMT -5
Where did I claim to be speaking on behalf of the league? You asked for opinions, I voiced mine. I really don't give a damn what happens here, this is inconsequential to me and for you to start insinuating that this is the sort of thing that 'Kills Leagues' simply screams of extremism. I already agreed with you that this was a league screw up....what exactly are you looking for here? *edit* why don't you talk to the Toronto GM privately and try to sort this out? the response was quoting you, it was directed at everyone. as for extremism, I am only using my own experience. subquestion to everyone: how many FHL's have you been in? and how many of them lasted longer than 2 years? I'd be curious to know if I am just unlucky and my experience is unique. edit: I've been speaking with Toronto GM privately since I took the team over, and UofMe but this is the kind of conversation we should all be involved in, imo. I'm in one that started in 1999. 30 team keeper very similar to this one and I have moderated many, many debates over the years.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 18:28:22 GMT -5
The only legit reason I've seen thus far for Toronto to keep DSP is that he's gone along and made managerial decisions based on having DSP on the roster. He might've pulled the trigger on a trade if he didn't have him, or not pulled the trigger if he didn't have him.
However, I would like to compare this to a recent case of mine.
When I picked up Conacher last week, Sami said he was ineligible. Ok, back he goes. I read the rule book, thought I read it in a way that made Conacher eligible, and claimed him. Well, he wasn't eligible. I think this DSP case is similar, except there wasn't a Sami or other GM's there to say no.
If I kept Conacher because no one said anything and I went along with my business for a few months until Conacher got signed and everyone was like, hey wait...how'd Tampa get him? Then, I'd fully expect to return him to the pool. Conacher, and in this case, DSP, are/were not eligible to be picked up, and they should be returned to where they came from.
That's my rationale. I'm not saying Toronto was cheating or doing shady stuff or anything. Because he read the rule book one way, and acted on it, just like I did last week, and I certainly wasn't cheating. Saw a guy was leading the AHL in goals and he was available so, I looked into it. 1st rd pick DSP is available, rule book seems to allow me to pick him up...pick him up lol. But, if at some point someone, in this case Zaphod, realizes it shouldn't have been allowed, then the player should be returned. Especially when it's a player from another team! not just one from the FA pool.
And yes this is a change in my stance. I initially said pick compensation. However, this will set a precedent for the future, and the stricter penalty will prevent people from doing what Toronto did intentionally. If it's just compensation, then someone could be shady and pick up an ineligible player and not worry about eventually losing him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 18:39:01 GMT -5
The only legit reason I've seen thus far for Toronto to keep DSP is that he's gone along and made managerial decisions based on having DSP on the roster. He might've pulled the trigger on a trade if he didn't have him, or not pulled the trigger if he didn't have him. However, I would like to compare this to a recent case of mine. When I picked up Conacher last week, Sami said he was ineligible. Ok, back he goes. I read the rule book, thought I read it in a way that made Conacher eligible, and claimed him. Well, he wasn't eligible. I think this DSP case is similar, except there wasn't a Sami or other GM's there to say no. If I kept Conacher because no one said anything and I went along with my business for a few months until Conacher got signed and everyone was like, hey wait...how'd Tampa get him? Then, I'd fully expect to return him to the pool. Conacher, and in this case, DSP, are/were not eligible to be picked up, and they should be returned to where they came from. That's my rationale. I'm not saying Toronto was cheating or doing shady stuff or anything. Because he read the rule book one way, and acted on it, just like I did last week, and I certainly wasn't cheating. Saw a guy was leading the AHL in goals and he was available so, I looked into it. 1st rd pick DSP is available, rule book seems to allow me to pick him up...pick him up lol. But, if at some point someone, in this case Zaphod, realizes it shouldn't have been allowed, then the player should be returned. Especially when it's a player from another team! not just one from the FA pool. And yes this is a change in my stance. I initially said pick compensation. However, this will set a precedent for the future, and the stricter penalty will prevent people from doing what Toronto did intentionally. If it's just compensation, then someone could be shady and pick up an ineligible player and not worry about eventually losing him. correct me if i'm wrong, but arent conacher and DSP completely different cases? DSP is a prospect who was drafted by the ducks, while conacher is not a prospect because he was not drafted by an nhl team? you werent allowed to have conacher because he is not a prospect. i dont understand how toronto can remotely even be punished for doing what he did...lets say the next person you sign as an FA was actually signed a while ago by me, but i forgot to add him on fantrax and on my forum page. does that mean you get docked a draft pick?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 19:22:43 GMT -5
no one is getting docked a draft pick, at least that I'm aware of, and I don't support docking Toronto at all. NYI would just be gaining a supplementary pick.
People need to stop criticizing examples. Toronto made a pickup, posted a rulebook quote to support himself, and the player was ineligible. I did the exact same thing. In both cases, the player was ineligible. His prospect status means nothing to the comparison. I'm talking about ineligible players, not why they're ineligible and why we can't sign them. We both picked up ineligible players. we both thought we were within the rulebook. we were both wrong. both players should be returned.
In your suggested case, it is up to you to add the player on fantrax. ProBoards is the official site of the league, but if you neglect Fantrax and don't pick up your players, then they aren't your players. That's my opinion. This sounds extremely hypocritical. The difference is draft picks have been added to my team since I've been in this league. I've never had to do it on my own. Anybody that I sign as an FA, I have to do it myself. Therefore, it's on me. If STL never added my draft picks and he was supposed to, that's on him, and I should get that player eventually. Even if it means Toronto's been holding onto him for months.
Ottawa brings up a good point, and I think there should be a designated length of time for this. If you sign John Doe as an FA on Pro Boards, and you don't do the deed on Fantrax within 30 days (or some length of time), he's not yours anymore. There can't be a disconnect between the two sites.
On a side note: how long are we gonna use proboards, the man-moderated forum threads, as our official site, and not fantrax, the computer operated site designed for fantasy leagues? It feels like we're working in the stone age. ProBoards is great for conversation and rule books and this discussion, but in terms of rosters and transaction histories...there's a computer that does it for us!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 19:37:13 GMT -5
the whole point is that DSP should have been eligible to sign because the old gm didnt do anything to keep track of him. gm's should be punished for not keeping track of their players, not rewarded by having them off their roster and being able to keep them as theirs if they suddenly decide they want them later. think about it, if nyi keeps DSP, it gives people no incentive to maintain their rosters, add them to fantrax etc. i can go sign a guy like alexei yashin, not put him on my fantrax or forum page, and hope later on he signs in the nhl. if he does, i can quickly add him to my team and say i signed him a while back, if he doesnt, no one will even notice. what happens in the case where i sign yashin, dont add him to my roster, and then someone finds out a year later that he should be on my team, which means i would have been over the cap for a year?
the easiest way to solve this problem is:
if the player is not on your fantrax and forum page, he is eligible to be signed. although i know sometimes accidents happen on the forum when you are modifying your page you might accidently remove a player you own, so perhaps fantrax should be the main page for us? i still think we should be posting on both the boards and forum just in case fantrax crashes or we are switching to a new pool provider.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 19:47:22 GMT -5
the whole point is that DSP should have been eligible to sign because the old gm didnt do anything to keep track of him. gm's should be punished for not keeping track of their players, not rewarded by having them off their roster and being able to keep them as theirs if they suddenly decide they want them later. think about it, if nyi keeps DSP, it gives people no incentive to maintain their rosters, add them to fantrax etc. i can go sign a guy like alexei yashin, not put him on my fantrax or forum page, and hope later on he signs in the nhl. if he does, i can quickly add him to my team and say i signed him a while back, if he doesnt, no one will even notice. what happens in the case where i sign yashin, dont add him to my roster, and then someone finds out a year later that he should be on my team, which means i would have been over the cap for a year? the easiest way to solve this problem is: if the player is not on your fantrax and forum page, he is eligible to be signed. although i know sometimes accidents happen on the forum when you are modifying your page you might accidently remove a player you own, so perhaps fantrax should be the main page for us? i still think we should be posting on both the boards and forum just in case fantrax crashes or we are switching to a new pool provider. Ottawa, your points are valid and make sense. If DSP is returned, that sets a precedent for teams to be able to manipulate their threads as in your Yashin example. However, if DSP isn't returned, that sets a precedent for teams to start picking up players that belong to other teams because there's no retribution for it. I don't know what the solution is. They all have positives and negatives. I agree that we should post both places, but I'm not going to lie, my team thread isn't updated. I make a zillion trades and put them all in at once like once a month or so. I think Fantrax should be the main page. Pro Boards rosters should be updated when possible as a backup system in case Fantrax goes down.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 19:57:56 GMT -5
the whole point is that DSP should have been eligible to sign because the old gm didnt do anything to keep track of him. gm's should be punished for not keeping track of their players, not rewarded by having them off their roster and being able to keep them as theirs if they suddenly decide they want them later. think about it, if nyi keeps DSP, it gives people no incentive to maintain their rosters, add them to fantrax etc. i can go sign a guy like alexei yashin, not put him on my fantrax or forum page, and hope later on he signs in the nhl. if he does, i can quickly add him to my team and say i signed him a while back, if he doesnt, no one will even notice. what happens in the case where i sign yashin, dont add him to my roster, and then someone finds out a year later that he should be on my team, which means i would have been over the cap for a year? the easiest way to solve this problem is: if the player is not on your fantrax and forum page, he is eligible to be signed. although i know sometimes accidents happen on the forum when you are modifying your page you might accidently remove a player you own, so perhaps fantrax should be the main page for us? i still think we should be posting on both the boards and forum just in case fantrax crashes or we are switching to a new pool provider. Ottawa, your points are valid and make sense. If DSP is returned, that sets a precedent for teams to be able to manipulate their threads as in your Yashin example. However, if DSP isn't returned, that sets a precedent for teams to start picking up players that belong to other teams because there's no retribution for it. I don't know what the solution is. They all have positives and negatives. I agree that we should post both places, but I'm not going to lie, my team thread isn't updated. I make a zillion trades and put them all in at once like once a month or so. I think Fantrax should be the main page. Pro Boards rosters should be updated when possible as a backup system in case Fantrax goes down. that's why we should allow toronto to keep dsp, to set the precedence. it will force gms to make sure their pages are up to date, and they do their job by adding the player they sign on fantrax. there are way too many cases where it can backfire if we give nyi dsp. another example is, what if team A wins the league with the most points. team B finishes in second, trailing by 200 points. after the season is done, team B mentions that team C signed player X a year ago, and player X got 400 points for team A. are we going to give team C player X, dock team A 400 points, and make team B the winner? team A could have easily replaced the 400 points with someone else, but he's going to lose because team C didnt do his job by adding him on fantrax and his team page. the ONLY reason i see nyi getting dsp is because the old gm didnt do his job and its not the new gms fault. but there are so many cases where new gms have to put up with terrible mistakes the previous gm made. give nyi a compensation pick since this is the first occurence that this situation happened. change the rules, add in a 1 week window for a player becoming a free agent if you sign him and dont add him to fantrax. problem solved!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 20:08:19 GMT -5
give nyi a compensation pick since this is the first occurence that this situation happened. change the rules, add in a 1 week window for a player becoming a free agent if you sign him and dont add him to fantrax. problem solved! Ya I must say I agree with this, although imo it should be a longer window than 1 week.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2012 20:14:33 GMT -5
give nyi a compensation pick since this is the first occurence that this situation happened. change the rules, add in a 1 week window for a player becoming a free agent if you sign him and dont add him to fantrax. problem solved! Ya I must say I agree with this, although imo it should be a longer window than 1 week. yea doesnt have to be a week, i just thought 30 days was way too long. 2 weeks sounds reasonable doesnt it?
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Post by JetsGM on Feb 20, 2012 20:40:40 GMT -5
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Post by zaphod (NYI) on Feb 20, 2012 22:57:55 GMT -5
this board has DSP listed as a prospect too. the emphasis I have seen lately is to try and have people pay attention to proboards and their team page, but then there is an attempt to discredit anything on proboards. One thing I also want to point out should be the emphasis I am trying to make: this is not about me trying to benefit from this mistake. We have 30 teams in this league. It is important for the league as a whole to make certain to keep those 30 teams strong and that drafted players are maintained with the franchise they belong on. because GMs come and go, it is the league that gets stuck with lameduck teams and it becomes the league who has to find replacement GM's willing to take on those shitty teams that get poached on due to previous GM's mistakes. It is a slippery slope is all I am saying, I am fine with a compensation pick if that is what the rest of the league decides, I just thought it was important to have this kind of discussion.
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Post by johnnybower (Det GM) on Feb 21, 2012 2:43:53 GMT -5
This situation is NOT about a GM who made a pick/signing, let it linger in cyberspace until it bacame advantageous to put him on a roster, then added him. It's about a GM who drafted a guy, then threw a hissy-fit and quit before he fulfilled his obligations to amend his roster. The guy had been drafted and was therefore ineligible to be picked up by anyone else without NYI releasing him. How do any of us know what decisions were/weren't made by the Toronto GM due to DSP being on his roster...all pure conjecture IMHO. It is a unique situation and any attempts to compare it to real or hypothetical situations are bogus.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2012 9:54:08 GMT -5
This situation is NOT about a GM who made a pick/signing, let it linger in cyberspace until it bacame advantageous to put him on a roster, then added him. It's about a GM who drafted a guy, then threw a hissy-fit and quit before he fulfilled his obligations to amend his roster. The guy had been drafted and was therefore ineligible to be picked up by anyone else without NYI releasing him. How do any of us know what decisions were/weren't made by the Toronto GM due to DSP being on his roster...all pure conjecture IMHO. It is a unique situation and any attempts to compare it to real or hypothetical situations are bogus. In one sense I agree with what you're saying here, that this is a very unique situation. However I don't understand the argument that it's a waste of time to consider how this may have affected the Toronto GM's subsequent management decisions. We'll never know for sure but it really doesn't matter because the league allowed it to happen. Our window to police this situation has closed. Regrettable......yes but is it more regrettable than pulling a player off another team after he's had him for over a year? I say no. The fact of the matter is that DSP was claimed off fantrax. Was he eligible? That's debatable but at the end of the day it doesn't matter because the leagues window to police this situation has long since closed. The only reason I see for the league to ever police a situation like this is if we have serious doubts about the competency of a GM and are thinking of booting him (otherwise it's a 'to-bad-so-sad situation'). We are all responsible for our own assets, this is not a Nanny State! If someone can't get their act together and maintain a competitive roster in this format then we as a group have the right to attempt to salvage the team by booting the GM and overturning the final transaction (or lack thereof if it's at the draft table).
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