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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2014 10:33:10 GMT -5
I can't believe we're back here at this thread again already this season but something just jumped out at me that must be addressed. We just had a team (one of the top teams) destroy another 14-0 !!! That jumped out at me as being a bit odd so I went to look through the roster of the losing team (Montreal) only to find that they didn't set their lineup ONCE for the entire period leaving very good players on the bench: Elias, St Louis, Girgensons, Boychuck, Hunwick and to top it off....PRICE!! This is completely unacceptable and if we're concerned about skewing league statistics in the least there must be retroactive moves made to correct this. 27 SOG, 5 assists, 22 hits, 6 blocks, 1 win with a GAA of 2.88 a SV% of 0.914 and 94 saves were all left on the table. I'm not exactly sure what this would have done to the matchup for the week. I know this would have pushed the Wins and given Montreal a point for GAA, SV% and SVs so that takes a 14-0 and turns it into a 10-3. Well, obviously we are both biased in this instance. But I do not think we should retroactively change lineups due to inactivity. Two reasons that come to mind are 1) Where does it stop? You change MTL this week, do you change every other team for the entire season? How do we know who was an inactive manager on a Friday in October and who was strategically benching for proper reasons? 2) I make lineup changes based on stats of that week. For example, I had most stats locked up except +- so i sat a couple guys towards the end of the week who were risky +- guys. If you change MTL's score, that changes who I would've played. The same logic applies or every other matchup you would need to change going back to the beginning of the season, which causes issues. I know Zaphod in the past has been setting lineups for inactive teams proactively, and I think this is the best course of action. Because if he or whoever it is makes a mistake, we can catch it and correct it in proper time. To go back in time creates a lot of issues.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2014 11:01:51 GMT -5
Why didn't you notify the league that this was occurring? Obviously you saw what was happening. Or did you inform the comish and nothing was done?
If you're comfortable winning that way then so be it..... I'd have expected you wouldn't be. 'Wins' like that certainly don't inspire me to show full commitment to this league. Ive been thinking about this for some time now but I'm becoming convinced that a 30 team H2H league just doesn't make any sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2014 12:06:26 GMT -5
I didn't really know it was happening. I knew he didn't make any line changes all week, but I didn't know some of his better players were on the bench and I didn't know Price sat all week while Stalock didn't play in real life. I would have had to go to his team page during the week to see that, and I just stick to the live scoring page.
As you know by what you said at the end there, this is the nature of the beast of a 30 team H2H. Some wins are going to be more hollow than others. You might play an active owner and win 10-5 while someone else plays them while they are inactive and win 14-1.
You were here when we used to be season long roto and that is without a doubt a more true representation of a final champion. H2H is more random, but it helps keep people involved and makes the day to day a bit more fun and exciting when there is something at stake every week. We can go back and check, but I assume that's why we made the switch two or three years ago.
Edit: I take on whichever team I play that week and try to win as many categories as possible. That's all. This week I get Pittsburgh, who is ravaged by injuries (as am I), and I'm lucky to play him now as compared to March when some of them are back. Three GMs got to play Columbus while they illegally didn't have a goalie. Finally, LaBarbera played this week. But it's lucky for those teams who took advantage of that situation. You'll get a team or two on your schedule at the right time and take advantage of it.
In the meantime, we do what we can to enforce rules, decrease inactivity, and field solid lineups. Any ideas on how to do that should be explored.
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Post by Ken (ANA) on Nov 3, 2014 13:47:09 GMT -5
I think its difficult for any contending team to be unbiased in this situation but I do agree that retroactive changes would open a whole new can of worms that will be very difficult to deal with. Rather than dwelling on the past, let's explore solutions for the future.
The H2H format is designed so that every GM could be accountable for reporting roster violations and inactivity for their opponents. As Vancouver pointed out, opponents are in the best position to notice roster violations and inactivity. But the problem is there's no incentive to report your opponent if it results in your team doing better. I think implementing a rule where you have to be accountable for your team AND your opponents on a weekly basis would be a good way to enforce rules and decrease inactivity. Depending on how we structure the rule, I don't think it'll be as much work as it sounds because it seems like most of the GMs in the league are active and everyone will be reporting on the same repeat offenders anyway.
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Post by magicstew on Nov 3, 2014 14:29:33 GMT -5
People should at least be able to set their rosters at least once a week, its easy to do especially if you know you are going to be busy. If you can't do this you probably shouldn't be in this league. If people notice someone with inactive roster , then commish should be notified and they can take corrective action. There is a difference when someone benches their starting goalie to win a category, to some one not playing his starter. I don't want to win because of an inactive manager.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 10:23:11 GMT -5
Ah well, I'm sure I won't be monitoring any teams I'm up against then. Not how I wanted this to play out but there seems to be little will to change things outside of an exceedingly small and active group of GMs.
Would the comish like to weigh in?
In response to TBays question with regards to switching to the H2H format; the original intent of the league was to be H2H but Fantrax didn't offer the option at the time. Once they made it available we swapped formats. Most of us were intrigued to try a league setting few had experienced before and I'm sure that's why multiple other GMs have joined this league but after giving it a number of years I can honestly say that I enjoyed the original setup more. I'm curious to know what some of the other original GMs think.
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Post by PineRider (SJ) on Nov 5, 2014 19:47:24 GMT -5
I'm not one of the original GM's but did experience both in this league.
I prefer roto from the standpoint that the winner definitely has the best team over the course of the year... but I also have a bias in that it is what I'm familiar with.
One of the reasons I joined Dirty30 was to try my first H2H dynasty league. I do see the advantage of an H2H format to have more potential for trash talk and interacting with the other GM's.
There is certainly more variability and leaves a little bit to luck, and in that regard, H2H is also closer to real life NHL: - a team can have a great week, but still run into a superior opponent and lose - good teams can have bad weeks and lose - bad teams can have good weeks and beat better opponents
H2H is not as exact in determining a winner as roto.
While I am not totally indifferent, I am okay to playing either format.
That said, why do I play and what makes a good league? Most of the fun is the banter with other GM's. The rest is in making tough decisions as we pretend to be smarter than real NHL GM's.
Despite all the discussion the past couple of weeks, Dirty30 is a great league: for a free league, all 30 GM's are reasonably active - Fantrax logins show that everyone has logged in within the past week.
There is also solid core of very active GM's and admins who care. When we look at everyone who has piped up recently care about the league, who see some things which could use improvement and offer opinions on how to make things better... these are not symptoms of apathy.
And again, this is a free league with nothing as stake except an extra draft pick and bragging rights. No money down for hours of entertainment - what a deal!
Before I ramble any longer, to answer Vancouver's question again, I would be happy to play in either roto or H2H format... It really won't matter to the rest of you since I will soon be winning the championship for years!! [insert evil laugh here] :-p
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Post by uofmehockey on Nov 6, 2014 1:02:31 GMT -5
First of all, I've been monitoring the conversations and have to admit there's a few things that I've not been pleased with lately. Inactive GMs is something I'm never pleased with. I understand that every GM has different factors that affect their activity level and team competitiveness. Some GMs are rebuilding and some are competing for the league championship. Some GMs like to trade more than others. Some GMs have more outside time commitments than other GMs.
I also believe in the concept of rebuilding GMs having sucky teams so that they can improve via the draft. But I also believe that every team should have an NHL goaltender. I have recently forwarded some of my thoughts to some of the admins who help me run this league. Any proposed league changes won't be effective until next season, but I would support returning to the previous format. A head-to-head league is challenging, but it also seems more likely effected by forces beyond a GM's control (inactive GMs, scoring slumps, hot goaltenders, injuries, ...)
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Post by zaphod (NYI) on Nov 6, 2014 8:26:11 GMT -5
if your team sucks and you can't dress a great team, that is one thing. if you are purposefully (or absently) leaving active players on your bench and not collecting points, that is unacceptable to me. that is artificially making your team gain fewer points to gain higher draft picks and whether it is intentional or not, offending teams need to be punished by a loss of draft rankings (going down 5 spots/10 spots in the draft) or lose their draft pick entirely.
that is a shitty option, nobody wants to lose their pick and frankly I don't want to gain spots on other teams because of GM's either being inactive or actively tanking.
it takes the fun out of FHLs. and that is what we are all here for because nobody is winning anything of substance here.
bragging rights only mean something if they have been accomplished through strategy and guile, not cheating.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 10:01:12 GMT -5
Any proposed league changes won't be effective until next season, but I would support returning to the previous format. A head-to-head league is challenging, but it also seems more likely effected by forces beyond a GM's control (inactive GMs, scoring slumps, hot goaltenders, injuries, ...) I'm very happy to hear this! Should we put it to a vote? I can't see how it would have much bearing on how anyone built their rosters so there's little to be argued there. It simply seems like a personal preference choice and will lead to a situation where the teams at the top of the league will more accurately reflect the best teams throughout the entire season. We definitely disagree on the goalie thing but that's small potatoes to me compared to a format shift so I'd be happy to let that one drop
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Post by magicstew on Nov 8, 2014 11:24:51 GMT -5
Found this on Dobber - is this something we can look at?
"My league has a rule that at the end of the year his "Net Points" has to be within 15% of his "Gross Points" or his odds in the lottery switch places with the team just above him in the standings.
Very easy to track this as Fantrax does it for us. We just need to grab a calculator type in his gross points and times it by.85. If his net or standings points are lower than the number on the calculator, he moves up a spot for not starting his best team 85% of the time. This number in more than enough to account for bad luck, poor starting decisions or inactive GM's.
Not sure if that is something you might be interested in for next season."
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Post by Colorado on Nov 9, 2014 14:41:46 GMT -5
Sounds great to me !
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Post by Ken (ANA) on Nov 10, 2014 13:28:12 GMT -5
I could see how this would apply easily to a points only league but I'm not sure how we can apply it to a multi-cat league. I saw the same Dobber post and the guy who posted it was in a points league.
I like the idea but I can't think of a way to apply it to multiple categories without it being a lot of work. I think the problem is that its difficult to get the "Gross stats" in our league without doing a lot of calculation.
I'm not aware of a way to easily obtain gross mutli-cat stats for a team. Thoughts from anyone?
edit: Oh snap! Never mind. I figured it out. In case I wasn't the only one who completely missed this feature, on the individual's team page, you can click on NHL stats and there's a little yellow bar at the bottom that shows you the gross stats. I like this idea even more.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 23:12:06 GMT -5
Minnesota has some illegal roster issues this week. Doesn't really matter I guess, since a few ill-gotten wins aren't going to make me a threat to anyone's playoff hopes or anything like that, but I just noticed now and figured I should mention it.
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Post by johnnybower (Det GM) on Nov 16, 2014 0:08:45 GMT -5
All I have to say is that I try to field a legit NHL active roster every week, and I try to have enough legit guys on the bench or in the minors to fill in any gaps that injuries cause in my active roster. It pisses me off to see teams with guys on their active rosters who are injured or in the minors when they have players in the minors or on the bench who are accumulating points in the RL NHL. I have made crappy deals to stay compliant and I sometimes wonder why I bother.
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